Insights

Christina Bösenberg, Executive Vice President and Head of Workforce and Organization, Capgemini, Berlin and Volker Haber, Group CPO and Managing Director DACH, Beaumont Group Deutschland GmbH.

Beaumont Group’s Dynamic Dialogues is a series of informal discussions with engaging business, political and other leaders from around the world. In this series we explore challenges and successes executives and thought leaders across industries are thinking about.

This issue of Dynamic Dialogues continues our recent discussion with Christina Bösenberg, Executive Vice President and Head of Workforce and Organization, Capgemini, Berlin and Beaumont’s Managing Partner, Germany, Volker Haber. We sat down with Christina and Volker earlier this summer where we discussed a range of issues surrounding implementation of effective and successful transformation programmes as well the importance of diversity, equity and inclusion in the commercial world.

Interviewer: I know Christina and Volker that Diversity, Equity & Inclusion initiatives are very important to you both personally and professionally. But in terms of transformation and emotionalization we have discussed in our previous issue already, perhaps you could share some thoughts on the dynamics of organisations and role in success.

Christina: As you know, there are numerous studies that have shown that diverse companies are more profitable, deliver better shareholder value and so on. We have all the data supporting the impact. That’s good news because we can stop having this discussion. And these are not just focused on gender diversity, but all aspects of diversity.

Financial performance is obvious. And so is innovation. Innovation has been studied quite a lot recently. And enhanced productivity and innovation resulting from diverse teams brings a wide array of perspectives and problem-solving approaches to leadership teams. This is most definitely clear.

Some very interesting new studies that I have seen from several sources show that in areas such as risk mitigation and regulatory compliance if you have diverse boards, especially gender diverse boards, the insight shown is that the sustainability champions, that is those that comply with ESG and carbon zero strategies, are the companies that have the most females on boards — like 40/60 or 30/70 ratios. That was news for me. It is a global study, but we also have data for the European market. So diverse teams help organisations to comply not only with anti-discrimination laws, but also with carbon zero and ESG requirements. Then, ESG and sustainability champions are those with more females on the team, not in sustainability positions but across all c-suite positions.

The other area where this is important is the enhanced reputations and the brand. This impacts the attraction and retention of talent. Because, of course as Volker has said previously, the younger generation, and the older generation as well, they look for diversity across the organisation. People are tired of the all-male boards and all male leadership teams. They are looking for role models. Also, on LinkedIn and Instagram they look to see if the company has female role models in place. Not just male or white males in place. That is really important in terms of the attraction and retention of talent.

Interviewer: It seems we have been talking about this forever. How do we diversify a team where it is more equitable and inclusive? But nothing really seems to happen. How do we break through this?

Christina: If I had the magic key I would be, we would all be hugely successful! To answer your question though, it is not simple.

Volker: This is an ongoing topic. We talk about it constantly. Many boards are dominated by older, white males. Nothing seems to change. This is something I have been focused on for years. It is one reason Christina and I came together as well, talking about this as it is so obvious that we need to make progress on this. It is scientifically proven that diverse boards and leadership teams are more successful, more efficient, and more profitable.

I do not like the approach in Germany that the CEO when leaving a post will become the head of the Advisory Board after a cooling down period. It makes no sense. It just ensures that the old approaches and patterns will continue within the organization. Everyone agrees on this but nothing changes.

Christina: May I add some science here as the psychologist? We have been talking about this for so long. There are some very human root causes. First of all, it is embedded in the homo sapiens brain where the focus is on continuity over change. We have a strong preference for continuity and familiarity as homo sapiens. And, of course, leaders are not immune to this engrained preference. It ensures a nearly closed network. Are you familiar with the “mini me” decisions. Not sure if you are familiar with this, the unconscious bias, where we are so addicted to continuity and familiarity. We are nearly always inclined to like the “mini me” a bit more than the not so “mini me”. It is an automatic process. It can only be broken by consciously exploring and thinking about our behaviours and thinking patterns.

And the second area is risk aversion. Our brain doesn’t like risk. We like security and safety. So, every change includes a bit of a risk. Thus, if we take a female or other minority into a closed network there is a perceived risk that it won’t work. In terms of culture and a way of communicating. It is far easier, and include myself here as well, to have a pretty similar group.

So, your question was about how can we break that? How can we move toward greater diversity? There are a lot of studies focused on this and there are some things that work, and unfortunately these are the authoritative ones like quotas and regulatory requirements. This is why so many females in Germany who rejected the quota for a long time, are big fans now of regulatory interventions. Because it is necessary to force it for a long period of time where the pattern can be broken.

Volker: Absolutely. As a part of the DE&I community myself, it is a particular focus for me. Advising my clients on their diversity needs, and how to implement a DE&I strategy. A lot of companies still don’t know how to implement a DE&I strategy. That’s really surprising on one hand. And we try to really advise them on DE&I strategy and implementation.

And then of course, when the strategy is in place, finding the right leadership talent as well. DE&I is such a broad issue, beyond gender diversity of course. It is really interesting that a lot of our clients still don’t know how to implement this strategy and make them, as an employer, much more interesting to the talent they require and want to attract.

Interviewer: I have discussed this myself with clients for quite some time, and one client who works exclusively in the DE&I space has said point blank that one of the big issues organisations face and executive search consultants specifically, is that it is hard to recruit DE&I leaders into some sectors simply because the talent pool can be quite sparse.

Volker: This can be a very difficult thing to do, because say sexual orientation is still hidden by many people and one is not allowed to ask about that. In Germany of course this would absolutely not be appropriate or allowed.

Christina: It is the same most everywhere. I am not allowed to ask anyone directly about age, sexual orientation, anything along those lines. It is an interesting challenge if you are trying to diversify your leadership, but certain questions are off limits. Which is of course as it should be. But you can see the challenge.

In professional services, top management consulting businesses, strategy consulting, no one talks about sexual orientation. It is still an area of discrimination. It’s a very male community. For example, I was part of only 4% of females at BCG senior leadership.

Interviewer: Circling back, on the flip side of diversity and boards and introducing diversity into a board’s make-up. Do you see any trepidation by diverse talent joining a certain board? Discomfort or whatever. Like a fish out of water type of thing.

Volker: If I can, I am building up a pool of diverse people for potential board placements in the near future. So, I speak a lot about this issue. And what I see is that these people, candidates for board placement, are all very strong people. They have no fear of going into a situation like that. Their focus is on changing what we are now talking about. Look at Christina, if she went into a board she would have a strong voice. All those people at a certain level are so strong that I have no concern about them being out of their comfort zone.

Christina: I see it a bit differently. I think that, of course, people like me and many others will survive in those eco systems. But not everybody is an extrovert. There are different personalities, and we have to find a way to open that up to more, leverage more introverted personalities.

The other issue for me is that having been a woman in tech, and having had a 25 year career in male dominated ecosystems, I can tell you it is very exhausting. It is not easy. It is twice as difficult for woman to enter that male ecosystem, far more so than a male who is always existing with his ecosystem if you will. For me it is like a bird in the water not a fish.

There are moments when I am so sick of talking like a man to just be heard by the group. The way I come to decisions and argue or the way I put my logic in to how I got to a decision is different to men. I constantly have to adapt. My language. My emotions. The way I am talking. I can tell you it is exhausting!

We have to find a way to really change this. It is too exhausting. That is what I meant previously when I said we have to find a way to open it up to the more introverted women and others of diverse backgrounds. Not everyone is willing or able to adapt.

There is a lot of research about how much female leaders need to adapt. Which makes no sense. Wouldn’t you lose the diversity element if the minority is the one to change?

It is really interesting as there is research around this, but the moment you have a 35 or 40 percent female or black or gay or… this enough to change the ecosystem.

This is why it makes no sense to have one female on a board. Doesn’t make sense. She will leave as quickly as possible. But when two women are on the board the dynamic and sensitivities change quickly. The ecosystem’s culture changes right away. If there is another female I can speak differently. Men and women definitely think differently. And having two women for example makes it so much easier to function effectively.

Interviewer: This has certainly been a broad and fascinating discussion and probably could continue for quite a while. I think we can all agree that the DE&I discussion especially will indeed continue for a long time yet.

 We would like to thank Christina Bösenberg of Capgemini and Volker Haber of Beaumont Group for their time and great insights.